I presented this talk at GrrCON 2023 in Track M. It was a 25 minute talk and although I practiced it a few times, apparently I may have rambled a bit on the day of the talk and couldn’t get all of it into the allotted time. So I decided to post it here & I may do a YouTube video of it as well. If you want to see that please let me know.
If you’re here, you probably already know who I am, but to summarize, I’m a Director of Infrastructure Vulnerability Management for a large real estate company. That company was the one that allowed me to move to Ireland in December of 2022 making one of my very long dreams come true! I originally visited Ireland for a holiday in May of 2011 and after 10+ visits later I was finally able to take the leap.
A lot of us in IT and specifically Security that I’ve spoken with think about moving to somewhere else. After all, if we can find internet we can still work right? All remote work is remote work isn’t it? Not really. You may have different hours than your coworkers in other countries, some of them may log out at 5:00:01pm their time, others may work 10+ hours a day 6 or 7 days a week. It varies depending on your job & your situation. You need to figure out if it will work for you & for your location.
**Disclaimer this is from the experience of someone who had no ability to get citizenship in their chosen country**
Some people do it on a whim and can do a fast move if they have family or citizenship in the country they want to move to. I was 2 days into my first trip (May 2, 2011) when I told everyone I was going to move to Ireland. I spent 11 years, 7 months, 24 days trying…until I finally got the opportunity to move & still had people saying “you have no idea what it’s like” or “are you sure this is what you want?” This was even when they have never left the USA and I had visited Ireland more than 10 times. My cousin who has traveled a bit internationally even said “He’s going to get there & he’ll figure it out & come home”. He’s still asking my mom (9+ months into this) “Has he decided to come home yet?” Mom’s friends are no different. One has repeatedly told her “You aren’t going to ‘let’ him move there are you??” If you’re like me you just cringed when you read that. I’m older now than when someone “let her” have a child. People will assume entitlement over your autonomy if you let them. Other friends of my mom’s are wondering why I was ‘leaving’ her in Indiana and moving abroad. We all need to live our lives for ourselves, not what others want or expect us to do.
I have traveled to 23 states & 12 & 1/2 countries (Iceland was only the airport because I screwed up my travel plans & lost my day there including the cost of the hotel). Most of these speak another language even if they aren’t “Official” because of forced colonization:
- Canada – English/French
- Mexico – Spanish
- Jamaica – English/Patois
- Ireland – Irish/English
- N. Ireland – English/(Some) Irish
- Scotland – English & Scots/Scottish Gaelic
- Wales – Welsh/English
- Norway – Norweign/Sami
- Belgium – Dutch/French/German
- German – German
- Austria – German
- Iceland – Icelandic
You have a lot to consider on where you want to move. Maybe you try it out for a month? Do you speak the language (or at least one of them?), there will undoubtedly be a lot of paperwork, working in security there are a lot of jobs everywhere but are you moving your job over to that country or finding a new one? You’ll also need to consider finding a place to live, and getting paid.
Trying it out can be beneficial especially if you haven’t spent much time in your chosen country. But…you aren’t really ‘living’ there until you’ve been there a while. I did a month living in Ireland but I was still living out of a suitcase, I wasn’t dealing with with things like government documents or processes, and I realized that I’m still going to be considered the “tourist” even after months of living there. I even experienced this situation recently (after 9+ months) when a guy who lives 1/2 a year in Florida, and then 1/2 of the year in my little village in Ireland asked me “How’s your holiday going?” after hearing my USA accent.
To be honest…I totally did the “when I lived in Ireland” when I was back home after a month of trying it out in Ireland when I’d speak with my family & friends though…
My friend Snipe moved to Portugal with her husband. They are learning Portuguese to make the transition easier. You can find her blog at https://snipe.pt regarding her move over there. It’s a much more difficult move than mine because of the language issues but you can tell from her blog that they are having a great time & are happy with the move. Hopefully you get the joke? If not…
Poor little Portugal who invented it is only #4 on the list of countries that speak the language. Of 260 million people who speak Portuguese, Brazil is the largest of the speakers followed by Angola & Mozambique who both have 3x more speakers than Portugal.
When I visited Belgium the first time I couldn’t understand anyone or the signs in the airport when I was trying to get to the train station that is in the same complex. I had to rely on the pictograms to find the baggage claim & find the train. Thankfully some of the people working there spoke a bit of English and I figured out how to get to my hotel but it’s something to consider when you’re looking to move overseas.
I took the easy way out & chose a country that speaks English as an official language. There are a total of ~7 mil people on the island of Ireland. In the Republic of Ireland, about 195K speak Irish “Very well”, with about 71K who speak it daily. About 2 mil on the island “can speak” it but everyone can speak English. So with only about 1% speaking the native language daily and it’s pretty easy for me to communicate.
Duolingo says “4.2 mil people learning Irish on Duolingo” and that there are more learning it there than native speakers of the language. But at 2mil that “can” speak it, & most people “sign up” for a language but never fully speak it on their app…I question their numbers on “learners”. I am learning Irish on Duolingo though…And Irish with Mollie, And Gaelige gan stroh. I did get feedback on the day of the talk at GrrCON from an Irish guy in the audience who said I may be using the wrong spelling of Ireland in Irish. I’ll have to do more research.
So let’s talk about the difference in laws. I recently received a letter for an apartment inspection from Galway County Council that I didn’t ask for, my landlord didn’t ask for, but said; “We will now carry out an inspection of your apartment on this date, between the hours of (4h window) based on this 2019 law. Please note that making a video/voice recording of an inspection in process or our staff is not permitted”.
You’re going to say what day & time you’re going to come into my home, I have to let you, and I can’t even record you to be sure you’re not casing my place to steal things later?
I know I’m not the only one to have this line of thinking because when I gave this talk I was sitting in Grand Rapids, half way between Detroit & Chicago. Two of the highest crime areas in the USA. And as a USA citizen with the whole “Castle Doctrine” being thrown around & such…it was a wake up call. The privacy laws are definitely different & something to consider before you move somewhere.
I really should have listened to my friends with more experience about this before I moved. Anyone who knows me KNOWS I’ve been trying to move to Ireland for years. It’s all I talked about. So I was always trying to find someone who had done it. But if I had listened I’d probably be further along right now.
If you’ve met me & didn’t know I was a Hibernophile, you probably weren’t paying attention. Or didn’t know what the term meant. 😀
I talked to a lot of people who live or were from Ireland. It’s all I was interested in. Everyone who knew me knew it was the top item on my bucket list was to move to Ireland.
One of those people I talked to was my very good friend Lauren. She was one of the people who had “done it” and moved to a new country. She was such a massive help. She had lived in Japan for a few years & gave me a lot of great advice on moving. Including how “trying it out” isn’t living there and how it’ll be 6 months to a year before you feel like you’re “home”. As of now I’m at 9+ months & I mentioned how I’m still asked “How’s your holiday going?” by locals in my 140-ish person village. The first few months are still “vacation”, then trying to figure out what grocery store you like, who picks up your trash?, how do you pay bills? How do you meet friends, etc. She’s an awesome person & you should follow her & learn from her too.
Another friend who helped me out was Don.
I should have listened to Don more since he already *DID THIS* (Texas > Ireland). He gave me so much great advice on where to look for internet, housing, getting my dog over to Ireland, driving, immigration, etc. Driving alone was one I should have listened to him & started right from the time I landed like he told me. It was €24 to get access to the learning portal to study the 1000+ questions for the driving theory test, €45 to take the theory test, €35 to get the learner permit, €250 for the 6 hours of lessons (even with a Reduced Essential Driver Training certificate because I already had a USA license), €4 for the “L” (learner) stickers for the car window, €85 for the driving practical test, €55 for the driving license, and €4 for the “N” stickers that you have to put in the window for 2 years…and that’s not counting the current ~5 month wait time to get an invitation to take the driving practical test 3-5 weeks later. Assuming you pass the first time it’s a total cost of about €502 ($535.76) and about 6 months of time. Other auto costs include €55 for NCT (National Car Test) every year & Insurance & Taxes on the car. I’m still pending my practical test which I’m supposed to get sometime in December…
As an aside, the license to drive a car also is the license to drive a tractor. Yes this is my back yard (back garden) and someone drove their tractor to the pub. Your man from Chicago now lives in the sticks.
“Why shouldn’t you drive a tractor quickly over uneven roads?” – “Excessive Bouncing” 🤷♂️
This is a sign by my house. It’s is another funny thing with the Irish roads…how do you do 80 km/h (49.7 mph) “slowly”? They are talking about reducing the speeds on some country roads because of all the accidents because they are so narrow & winding.
I would be remiss if I didn’t mention my good friend Brian Honan who is the CEO of BHConsulting & runs Ireland’s CSIRT. He loves a bit of craic (fun) and banter and is one of the nicest guys I’ve met. He provided me with a wealth of information about living outside of Galway city as he’s lived in the county, as well as people to reach out to in order to find a place to live, banks, cars, and trying to help me get a security meetup established in Galway!
He also likes to say “Welcome to my island” 😄 Must be an Irish thing.
This was a scene from Braveheart for those that don’t know.
So in addition to the points on the slide, when I was flying over, the cargo company screwed up the flight details & didn’t actually book Bella on my flight. It cost me an extra day rental car & had to stay in the USA an additional day (thankfully at my mom’s house). My roundtrip flight from Dublin to Chicago was €450. Bella’s flight alone was nearly double and she was in cargo for just one leg of those two flights. This is just one of the times I’ve thought “this is nothing but a money grab” for one of the processes to move over but I couldn’t be without my furkid.
So let’s move into the job area:
When I first started trying to move to Ireland, I couldn’t find a job that would sponsor the work permit, and couldn’t get a work permit without a job. There are a lot of security jobs in Ireland and it’s easy to find them, but not always to get them. It is much easier when work moves you over but other countries may be easier than Ireland. Check into what requirements you need to work in your country of choice.
Paperwork, aka Visa/Work Permit will be a challenge. Make sure you know what you need to do to work/live in your country of choice.
- You may not be able to get a “Visa”. Ireland doesn’t give a Visa to USA Citizens.
- Your company moving you is so much easier to get your foot in the door if that is an option.
- Know the laws about immigration of your chosen country, how long can you stay, what are the entry/exit requirements, etc.
- Can you arrive before you start work? – I had 90 days of a “holiday” I could do before my start date. I moved 12/27/2022, started 1/9/2023.
- An interesting item was trying to get Revolut as Irish bank account – “We need a copy of your visa” – “I can’t get one” – “Well when you get one let us know” 🤨. I tried to explain to them that US citizens don’t ***EVER*** get one…ever. But they weren’t getting it. They said as an alternative they would give me an account when I got my residency permit card, but that took longer than getting a bank account at an Irish bank instead.
When you find a job, where will you live? There is a current housing crisis in Ireland. It’s good to work in Security because we’re paid well, but still ridiculous to find a place to stay. My only two requirements to live in Galway city were “I have a dog & need an unfurnished place”. There are not a lot of places that allow pets & even less that are unfurnished. Finding both in the city was going to be like finding a unicorn. Well in Galway city the cost for a unicorn would have set me back €4000/$4250 a month. I decided to search for other places & found a place about 20-25 mins outside the city which was less than half that for a bigger place that was less than 10y old & well maintained.
Banking in Ireland is tough…between the documents required to open an account to the transfer of money from one account you own to another is a hassle all the way around. “Here is money, please let me deposit it” – “No, you must give us documents you don’t have.” Thankfully after getting my Personal Public Service number (similar to SSN in the USA) along with my proof of residency I was able to open an account.
Where I “tried it out” living in Ireland was only getting 2Mbps downloads…for 2 apartments. I was able to get them to bump it up to 5Mbps but it was still a struggle to get good connections and work efficiently. My current apartment is on 5G wireless at 125-150Mbps downloads…the building with the tractor on a previous slide is able to get 1Gbps fiber…and I can’t get it even though I can throw a rock & hit the building.
Check your EXACT location prior to signing anything…also use your own router…because Huawei is a thing outside the USA and you don’t want nation states having that easy of access to your data.
I have to pay for each time they “lift” my recycling & garbage bins and then pay for how many kilograms I’m throwing away (recycling is free other than the lift charge). And my electric bill is 2x more expensive than Chicago. I just paid €375 ($400) for 2 months electric and all lights in my apartment are LED. There is nothing set up for Natural Gas, my heating is Kerosene or heating oil & most appliances are electric. Ireland has the most expensive electric in EU. Also I’m paying nearly $8USD a gallon for petrol (gas) over here so know what fuel is going to cost you to run your house/vehicle, etc.
Moving expenses for overseas containers SKYROCKETED after the pandemic. My estimate before the pandemic went from “worst case scenario of $7000 to move everything you have” to $12K for a 1/2 a shipping container to move only a handful of furniture items & personal affects. I sold/gave away/threw out *SO MUCH* before the move. You really evaluate if you “need” something when you make a move like this. Many people told me to just take a few boxes of things you couldn’t live without & sell or donate the rest. I did that with a lot of things but because I had heirloom furniture I couldn’t get rid of all of it so it cost me.
It really is tough to even have the ability to apply to a remote or relocation job. I tried LinkedIn & other sites, but wouldn’t even be able to submit my application because of my location…this goes back to: Network, Network, Network. It’s easier to have your job move you over especially if they have an office in the country you want to live in but knowing someone in that country is a good thing too. They can put in a good word for you, or they may know someone who is hiring for the country you’re trying to move to. Not a lot of companies will sponsor a worker from another country but you can try, EU may be different than others. It goes back to researching your chosen location.
Speaking of Networking…This could be an actual shot of me trying to run Burbsec Galway…the last 2 have been just me seeing if someone would show up. I was from Chicago where there was a pretty lively InfoSec networking meetup support group with 6 different locations around the city. When I came to Galway, it’s been a challenge to get one started here. I was hoping to get a decent core group of people to discuss work but the most I’ve had is 3 other people. Granted the city size is no where near the same ratio… Chicago city proper is about 2.697mil people in 2021. Galway is about 84,000 (estimated). Try to find people to connect with to feel like you’re “home” in your new place.
So let’s actually try to get some work done…There are a few things to keep in mind when you’re working away from the rest of the team.
Working from a remote location, this has been my BIGGEST challenge. I’m 5-6+ hours ahead of most of my coworkers. Most are decent with trying to book me within my hours but you’re going to end up with those people who want to say “oh we just need you on this one meeting at 9pm your time”. The problem becomes everyone thinking you’ll just fold because next thing you know you’re working until 8pm+ every night. This becomes easier when you have an understanding manager who wants you to be logging off at a normal time locally most nights.
People you have worked with for 5+ years are going to forget. They’ll forget your name, where you live, etc. You need to make sure you have your manager in your corner & can push back if needed. Thankfully I have my manager & his manager who have my back & reiterate to others that I work half way around the world & can’t do a 5pm call in the Central Time Zone.
Are you the only one in the boonies? Thankfully I have colleagues all over the world. Spain, UK, USA, Singapore, etc. So it makes it a bit easier because I’m not the only one trying to coordinate times with team members for meetings. But if you’re on your own you’ll have to bend to others because you’re the odd one out. The company may let you live there, but you may end up working US hours or such. India does this a lot for much of their remote work they perform when I’ve worked with people from there in the past.
So this was an unexpected wrinkle…Since I’m living in Ireland and work for an enterprise, we have an office in Dublin, but don’t have IT here in this country. I had to take “Business training” regarding “Competition” because I had to be moved under a business function cost center in order to make my paycheck work. Expect that there will be random one-offs that you have to deal with when working remotely away from the home office or away from the rest of IT.
So…I have only 1 day each week where I have a really late meeting. The drawback is it’s every week. You’re going to have to bend somewhere if you’re being allowed to live & work abroad. They are allowing you to work remotely from wherever. You have to give them some credit because a lot of companies won’t let you. If they do they value you that much to let you work from half way around the world, you should show them you appreciate it by realizing that you can do 1 day a week where you work their hours.
But I do have 1 night a week that I finish after 10:30pm. So there’s that.
Now we all want to get paid. You need to realize that you’re probably working under a different monetary unit & different tax laws. How are you getting paid? Are you able to keep your salary when you move or are they going to change it because of cost of living? My biggest issues have been:
- Getting a Tax ID number
- Getting a Resident ID card
- Pensions & retirement
- Getting a bank account
- Transferring money for paying/saving
My tax ID & tax card took forever & required me to get an Irish phone number. I tried to get a Tax ID when I was in the USA to speed things along but I would have had to buy property remotely that I had never seen. Once I got here to Ireland it took 2+ months.
Thankfully my company is doing my taxes in each country for me for the first year. But if you leave the USA, you’ll need to realize: YOU STILL HAVE TO FILE TAXES IN THE USA. FULL STOP. Even if you don’t owe anything because of exemptions of paying taxes in your current country. Even if you leave for another country, denounce your citizenship, etc. I have read that you still have to file & potentially pay taxes for 10 years. Talk to your accountant! Friends that I have spoken with have set up accountants in both places to handle the taxes for each location to make sure they don’t run afoul of the laws.
Interesting thing I learned when moving…I “left” my job, but I didn’t “leave” my job.
I still have my 401K in the USA that I can’t roll over to my USA-IRA because I still “work” for my company even though every other thing in the company said I had to “quit” and be “rehired” for benefits & such to move to Ireland. So now I have my IRA from my rollovers from previous companies, a 401K in the USA, and Pension in Ireland. It makes my financial advisor scratch her head a bit. Know what your retirement is going to look like & how you’re going to fund it in your new location.
So adding to the rant from earlier… Revolut required a non-existent visa, other banks wanted a proof of address (utility bill within the last 6 months), and a proof of Identity like a passport. The drawback is that they won’t take a cellphone bill & my electric bill took about 2 months to show up. Open a bank account over in your country (or a bank that does business there) as soon as you’re able to do so. This will help you out with bank transfers, buying large ticket items like a car, etc. Transferring a sum of money enough to buy a car was a MASSIVE headache for me. US banks don’t like to transfer money of that amount without you being in the branch which is a challenge when you’re in Galway & your money is in Chicago. It took me half a dozen calls to get the money transferred to buy a car in Ireland. We’re in Security so it makes sense from their side, but it’s still a challenge you need to be aware of.
How are you getting paid? If your company isn’t paying your taxes, make sure you are paying them on time…or you’ll look like this. Figure out if you are going to have to be a “contractor” in that country & pay/manage your own finances. Ireland has a higher tax rate than the USA. Yes I thought of this before I moved, and yes there are benefits for the taxes that are paid, but some would argue not enough. Make sure you know how much you’re going to pay in taxes & what you get for them.
Ireland does have socialized medicine, which is paid for by taxes, but my company also offers private insurance which gets you in faster and is generally considered a better way to go. The difference is that it’s a pay & reimburse system. So the medical office charges what they charge regardless of if you pay for it yourself or if you have insurance. You just get to get some of it back later if you have insurance. Not perfect, but cheaper than in the USA where it’s $10K until the Insurance company forces them down to $100 & then makes you pay that. Also my company foots the whole insurance premiums each year because they are a fraction of the cost of the USA which really helps.
Think about how you are going to meet people especially if you move alone. I moved with just myself & my dog to a new country. You’re going to need to figure out how to make friends. I had so many people in the USA who have told me “oh, it’s Ireland, just go to the pub and you’ll meet people no worries!” Well that’s partially true. I have a number of people who I have met at the pub in my village & for the most part I’d call them “friendly” but they aren’t the ones that you are going to ask to help you move. Or to come over and watch the game. Figure out some activities that you like to do & meet people who share them.
Are you able to do things you enjoy? I can’t bowl on a league anymore even though I’m half way decent at it because bowling leagues died out in Ireland about 10 years ago according to the only bowling alley in Galway. The closest archery ranges are 30 mins away, playing “pool” isn’t the same as “pool” in the states, etc. I would say try things like meetup groups, tours, etc. Find people to talk to who like to do what you do. Meet people who may be able to introduce you to others who become friends.
It’s probably going to happen. You’re uprooting yourself & your life to live somewhere else. You’re going to miss family & friends. Figure out what is going to get you through that, be it music, new experiences, etc. I still talk to most of my family including my mom via Facebook Messenger, Instagram, etc. You’re going to figure out if it’s right for you within the first year or so. Figure out what is going to help you decide if it’s a “down day” or you’re truly questioning if this move is for you.
So will you stay here permanently? You probably won’t know until you’ve been living here a few years. But if you do, look into what it will take to stop having to do the yearly update of your residency permit, etc. Personally I hope to become an Irish citizen someday but I have a bit to work though before that happens.
I saw this on the internet and thought it fit. I say enjoy the experience and a new culture! You can always change your mind if it’s not for you & move back home!
Security War Wizard 